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About Hel's "Skin2"[edit source]
I had discussed with Sibil about that skin, and he didn't want to see "unapproved" content. We settled with keeping it in the unreleaseds page. It's better to keep it like this.--Malvodion (talk) 06:07, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
- I disagree because it doesn't fit the format of the wiki. See Sun Wukong (Old) and his unreleased card. I see no reason why that card (which was never used in game or officially released) is acceptable while the Hel skin is not... especially since that skin will now no longer see the light of day due to the model change. I feel it is appropriate and ought to be put on the page. If "unapproved" content is unacceptable, then Ah-Muzen-Cab ought not to exist either.
About the lastest edits[edit source]
..They are not the same. It was just a way to promote it. To build hype for his release.
It's not a significat change: they are two completly different characters, with different stats, roles, abilities, and advantages/disadvantages. The only thing that connects them is their name. I appreciate you adding information, but there is a difference in adding useful information to contribute to the website, and another is to constantly replace info to add YOUR version to it, even when someone has already given you reasons to stop, stop doing that please. It's almost as bad as the spambots.--Malvodion (talk) 08:05, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
- I could not disagree more with your assertion. There is absolutely no opinion in my post and conforms to other gods that have been changed better. Furthermore, you added your opinion into the article without a single citation to back up your opinionated post. You posted that Sun Wukong was removed because his lore was inaccurate without: a citation from Hi-Rez to that effect, or any additional information to back up that opinion. You have imposed your opinion on the history of SMITE, which is totally against the idea of having an open and editable wiki serving as an encyclopedia to the game's history. The notion that Sun Wukong was not lore accurate is an opinion that was NOT shared by all SMITE players on the forums. I disagree with you imposing your opinion on the history of the change. I personally found Sun Wukong's appearance and lore perfectly congruent with each other before, but your opinion that it wasn't is not an appropriate one for an online encyclopedia of the game.
- The argument about the god's "difference" is lost on me. Of course the god is different: just as Guan New is different than Guan Old, or Hel is different than her original form, or Ymir is different than his original form now that the Frost Breath does damage. I don't see what this has to do with the edits in question. Based on how Hi-Rez has referred to the god in official documentation (posted in the edit), they have time and time again referred to him as a new version of the old god, which is the most accurate way to describe him. The fact that he has a different role and abilities is immaterial. Many gods have had their roles changed and abilities changed, but no attempt was made in those cases to represent those gods as totally different, though the gameplay of the gods was vastly changed, Guan Yu being a perfect example.
- The bottom line is that the current Sun Wukong entry is less encyclopedic and MORE opinionated than the entry that it replaced in every way. To liken my corrections to a spam bot is, quite frankly, petty, standoffish, incorrect, incredibly, inappropriately, and needlessly disrespectful.
- I know that there are a grand total of about three people who make changes on the site, and I don't want to give the notion that I don't appreciate what you do for the game and for the site - that often gets lost in the text without face to face contact. But, in this case, I find your unilateral decision to impose your personal opinion on what should be as neutrally written an article as possible, wrong. SMITEwiki should not be the opinion of any one person, even one as valuable, hard working, and integral to this site as you. No one's personal opinions should ever be above the truth.
- I vigorously and energetically object to your edit of Sun Wukong. -- Link006 (talk) 4:05 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- The SunWukong being changed because he didn't fit his lore was Is not an opinion. It was confirmed by several Hi-Rez employees in many streams around the time they announced Hun Batz release. I'm not going to hunt down the videos just because of this.
- Guan Yu got a pretty big change, but he was still the same god, with 3 of his old abilities (with small tweaks). Sun Wunkong is a completly new god, you can't even argue that. Ofcourse they are calling him a new version, because he is the character that took the "sunwukong" spot, and they are promoting it to catch attention, but the character itself is not the old wukong in any way. Again, it's not an opinion.
- I said that it's like a spambot's work beacause you keep doing the same edits without even making sure they are informative, accurrate, or needed, forcing me to re-edit the pages again, and again, because you can't accept otherwise without starting this drama. (We are in a videogame wiki for gods sake, I'm only volutering to keep the wiki in order, I don't want to have to deal with this atleast once every week.) And it's not the only wiki I work on, nor the only MOBA one: You HAVE to be neutral and informative.
- Again, it's not my opinion. I always add everything I can find about everything, I never modify things to what I think. In fact, we opened a page to discuss the changes on the website so that everyone could agree on what was for the better, and what was not, to change it again.
- You need to calm down and stop taking everything as an attack. We are in a wiki, what is even the point of doing this in the first place. If you want to do any changes, do it for others' sake, not just to fight.--Malvodion (talk) 07:06, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- It is for others that I am having this debate. Trust me, I would MUCH rather have played last night and tonight than to type out these diatribes, but you do a great disservice to this wiki's users by undoing this aforementioned changes. The changes you have made have made the pages LESS neutral AND less informative. The accuracy of Sun Wukong is totally compromised as currently written. It is unfair to in one hand cite what you claim are multiple instances of the devs posting and saying that lore the PRIMARY reason for the Sun change (which isn't true - I'm NOT saying they never said wasn't A reason for the change or that it wasn't a concern - I'm saying that when they announced Sun's removal, THAT was not the PRIMARY reason given - that is a fact) but then dismiss Hi-Rez when THEY call him a new version of the god, even when presented with HARD evidence to the contrary (with all the same video and post anecdotes you claim to have for the lore change). You can't decide to pick and choose what Hi-Rez citations are accurate and which aren't based on whether or not you agree with them. That isn't fair. Continued below -- Link006 1:19, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? I'm not picking certain anythings. I never said it was the only reason, but it is one of the things that pushed it foward, the other being tencent's partnership (this was also said several times. All the big visual changes the game went though months ago were their doing.). The only reason you are making this "huge" drama is because I edited your edits. You complain about me forcing my "ideas" into the wiki just because of it, then what does this make you?--Malvodion (talk) 02:55, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
- Responded Below - Link006
- In addition, the Trivia is not accurate - the god did not receive a revamp in June. The revamp was received in this patch. The Freya card change was using an original file on the site with the "card" background instead of an image that I uploaded without it - I don't see how undoing that change improved the page in any way. Additionally, the extra cards were all formatted using what was the original and accepted format at the time. I can't be responsible if you decide to change that after all the work is done - I did my best to standardize that in the exact way that cards were done in the past WITHOUT inserting my personal preference on how they should look into it.
- Also, changing the card sections to Previous Default cards is not a good idea. Those cards were named specifically because they were the card ONLY for the original default cards. What if Hi-Rez starts redoing cards for the other skins? Then all those will have to be changed AGAIN because the changed cards will NOT be previous default cards - they will be previous alternate color skin cards/premium skin cards, etc and the article's accuracy will suffer.
- Like I said, I respect the work you do for the site, but nitpicking entries to be how you personally want them is inappropriate in a format that encourages collaboration. I guess I don't see the point of having the site even open for login/registration/editing if you are going to change every change that is made. There's nothing wrong with having your own wiki site and heck, it'd still probably be the best one if for no other reason than people aren't willing to put in the time and effort to do it, but it is SMITEwiki, not Malvodion's SMITEwiki, respectfully. Nitpicking edits because somebody forgot to link in something is pointless instigation. Of course I didn't mean to unlink Hun Batz. I can't express my disappointment over the actions of the site and the unfortunate edits I've seen in the past 24 hours. Like I have said before, I think your work here on the whole is tremendous and a big service to the game and community, but I can't find even a single mediocre reason for the vast majority of your edits over the past 24-48 hours, much less a good one.
- Sorry for the walls of text in multiple places, but I don't feel like I have any other way to discuss to make my opinion known with so few active editors on the site currently. The fact that so few have so much power is quite troubling to me. I will not begin to claim to have even a 100th the time invested here that you do, but I can tell you that I AM just as committed to this site's accuracy: period. I believe that any reasonable review by a neutral third party would bear that out.
- There's 40 minutes down the drain. I'm going to go get at least ONE game in tonight.-- Link006 (talk) 4:37 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- The page clearly states that the other character recieved the revamp. My english might not be perfect but I know I didn't mistype that.
- I undid the freya card because: 1) it was replacing her placeholder's. We are supposed to preserve those. 2) It was extremly pixelated. The borderless one from smite's gods page was much more clear (though I didn't notice they were different when I was editing, I had saved the one I deleted in my pc to reupload it with a different name.). And about the previous cards: I wasn't the one that had this idea. If that were to happen, I can simply c&p "Previous Cards" on each page. It was red. It's a clever way to use the space left for the model picture, and it makes the table smaller. I was going to add it to all the pages around half a month ago, but I forgot. I did it now because I remembered.
- I'm just retouching the pages, do you want me to just leave the pages be when I can add some info or clean the article up a bit? Why/How do you take all my work as opionated selfish acts. Why would I even want to do that.
- Why are you getting to angry at me? I could be anywhere else doing anything else, but I choose to stay here and work on the page because I can, I don't get anything from it. Do you think I do this to antagonize you? Don't you think this only makes things more complicated for me too?
- I don't want to turn it on you but: Are you realy sure I'm the one opionated? Though I'm not sure if this would be opinions, or emotions. Remember we are doing this for others, not for ourselves. We get nothing from it, and we get even less from "fighting".--Malvodion (talk) 07:33, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
- I've continued the Sun Wukong discussion on his Discussion page. I accept your Freya explanation, but IF a higher resolution "card style" picture is available, it ought to be used if at all possible. I am all for adding info, but not opinion. Again, see Sun Wukong's discussion for more details. I think it is better served to continue that discussion there.
- We obviously both opinionated on the issue. I never claimed otherwise. I'm of the opinion that there ought not to be any opinion in the articles themselves (again, see Sun Wukong). On the cards issue, I'm happy to follow whatever format you want to use, but your response does not address the possible future problem of Hi-Rez possibly redoing old cards that aren't "Previous Default Cards".
- I've been as diplomatic and polite about this the whole way as I can. Going back to the edits that were made, ALL were made with the accuracy and integrity of the site in mind. None were made to editorialize, and there's no way one could argue that ANY of my edits have injected opinion into any article. I did not start this "conflict", if you wish to call it that. I simply made the needed edits and left them at that. You were the one who messaged me and likened me to a spambot. I did not fire the first shot into this pointless war. As I mentioned above, the only reason I have tried to remain so determined to fix these problems is because the site IS for others. Every edit I have made has improved the neutrality, accuracy, and content of the site for the average SMITE fan. As I mentioned, I am a fan of your work and respect it, but it is disappointing to see this from you when 98% of your work is so good. -- Link006 (talk) 1:34 31 October 2013 (UTC)
- Seriously, stop calling it "opinion". It's not an opinion. It never was. You have been intentionally twisting and misinterpretating everything I've said, or downright ignored it (like, how many times have I already said that the original sun wukong article specifies that he was revamped into hunbatz, yet you still say it's absolutelly unclear. I've read everything you have said.). That's not how to you argue with someone.
- Let's start from zero, and make things clear (let's ignore everything beyond the characters themselves): You know The new wukong is a completly new character, you know he isn't just the old character with changes. That's why I've said it's not accurrate to say he is, because he isn't. He IS linked to the previous wukong, since he is taking his place in the chinese pantheon, and they are linked together though their trivias, but beyond that they are nothing else. Beyond the game, Hi-Rez has promoted him as a return, but I know you know, it's not literal. Wukong, the mythological figure, rejoined the game.
- Now, Old wukong and HunBatz ARE the same character, but with visual and slightly (yes, he has changes even more during this past few months) different mechanics, which is why they are both linked and described as such.
- Now than that is (hopefully) clear: Do you still think it's just an opinion? Or maybe is it just reasoning?--Malvodion (talk) 02:55, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
- Listen, I have tried to be diplomatic from the beginning in every post, but you have instigated every single step of the way. If you want to disagree with what I am saying, that's fine. But trying to force a fight is WAY out of line. Sun Wukong is NOT a completely new character. Period. End of story. He has new moves, new voice over, and new graphics. The name is the same, the lore is the same. Those are infinitely MORE important than the moves, voice over, and graphics. Sun Wukong is the same god as Sun Wukong (Original). You ignore Hi-Rez calling him that (which they have done officially, unofficially, colloquially, and every other way that he could be referred to as a return of the original god. You ignore that, and then have the gall to tell me that I know it's not literal. You say in an above post that you never said that Sun Wukong was only changed because of lore, yet there in the article, the ONLY thing mentioned is lore! You're right, this is not how to argue with someone.
- I have not ignored anything that you said. Quite the opposite is true. Sun Wukong DID NOT receive a revamp in to Hun Batz. The god's revamp was received in the latest content patch. I don't how else to explain it. How could Sun Wukong be removed to receive a moveset overhaul and receive the overhaul in the same patch? Your argument is counterintuitive in every way. The revamp took time and is a totally unique situation - by far the most dramatic change of any god in SMITE. I believe he IS the old character with changes. To refer to the situation as anything but that is 100% inaccurate. I have explained that every step of the way, but you ignore time and time again, providing no proof or arguments to back up your point. Instead of making any attempt to engage in thoughtful conversation, you attack calling me a "spambot", "intentionally twisting and misinterpreting". You were the one that went on the attack in the beginning, an attack that required MORE TIME AND EFFORT than simply undoing the edit and saying "Hey Link006 - I noticed you edited Sun Wukong. I changed it back for now. I have some questions about the reasons for your edit. My thoughts are A, B, C & D. What are yours?" I would have been absolutely happy to go down that route (and still am). Instead you turned the flames on (for no reason - I have no prior history of causing any major issues on here for anyone before this happened, EVER. I'm not sure how you expect to have the intelligent conversation you claim to want when I am the only one putting in any effort.
- I offered and attempted to move this conversation to the Sun Wukong discussion page. Did you take the olive branch? No, you retorted back on my personal talk page with more off base accusations against my character and my intentions, without so much as taking even enough time for a one-word response on the discussion page. I've tried to cool the fires multiple times: "Sorry for the walls of text"; "On the cards issue, I'm happy to follow whatever format you want to use"; "I respect the work you do for the site". I have been turned away at EVERY turn. The record will show this.
- To make things clear: The new Sun Wukong is ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, UNQUESTIONABLY, INARGUABLY, NOT A COMPLETELY NEW CHARACTER. In order for a character to be COMPLETELY new, everything about it must be different. I'm not mincing words - that is the one and only definition of "completely". There are no shades of gray. A god is completely new or it isn't. The god shares the name and lore of Sun Wukong (Original). Therefore, the god CANNOT be completely new. The god is completely new in a gameplay sense, but the gods' primary organization mechanic on this website is NOT gameplay - it is lore based. And from a lore standpoint, these gods are ONE and the same. In my opinion (which I do not present as fact), I think most SMITE players do consider the two gods to be one and the same. I don't know if that counts for anything on here, but I have found it to be the case.
- The fact of the matter is that you fundamentally disagree with me about the nature of Sun Wukong's change from Hi-Rez. You believe he morphed into Hun Batz. I do not. SMITE said from the beginning that Sun would return. Because of that, I never dissociated Sun from his original form, no matter how different his new form would be from his old one. I absolutely believe that Sun Wukong is most correctly referred to as a new incarnation of his original form. That's how players refer to him, and most importantly that is how Hi-Rez does too.
- I am going to propose a compromise here for Sun Wukong's trivia section. The lines would read as follows: Sun Wukong was one of the five original free gods in SMITE. Sun Wukong was removed from the game in patch (insert patch here) to receive a moveset revamp. Hun Batz received the original god's moveset when Sun Wukong was removed. While removed, Hi-Rez modified Sun Wukong's appearance amid claims the god's appearance was not lore correct. The last current line in trivia is fine. I believe this is a fair compromise. The biggest problem I have with the trivia right now is threefold: first that the god was removed for lore reasons only; second that the two Sun Wukongs are completely separate and distinct gods; third, that Sun Wukong's revamp was received June 20th (correct date is October 23rd). I am perfectly willing to have a civilized conversation about any and all of this on the god's discussion page. I can assure you with 100% confidence that, if worded properly, (and I'm not saying that wording wouldn't need editing) no one would be confused as to the history of Sun Wukong and his two forms. In fact, people would find it more enlightening - it currently sounds like Sun Wukong received his revamp in the same patch in which he was removed which is logically impossible and confusing to read in an encyclopedia.
- For the love of god man, I am throwing you a bone here. Please take it. I'm not going to try anymore if you slap me in the face again. Someone has to defend the truth, and it appears no one is willing to do that but me. I believe that you believe that you are correct and doing what is best for the site. I still believe that. But belief is not truth and I don't think that your edit accurately reflects the history of this great game. -- Link006 (talk) 8:46 2 November 2013 (UTC)
- You do realize the only thing you have been doing is picking on the "weak points" of my arguments, like "Sun wukong isn't a completly new character because it's lore and name is the same". I wasn't being literal and you know it (Or atleast I realy hope so.), and using again and againg the "spambot" as a free card. "Twisting my words against me", if you can't reinforce your argument without it, then you shouldn't start one in the first place (don't you dare start something twisting that sentence.). You said that you read and "listen" to what I said, but you keept doing that sort of commentaries, so it's hard to tell.
- You already knew their trivias shouldn't be mixed, but you keept this going by doing that and distracting the main point of the conversation. I had already added info about this in the original's page and the newest god's. (BTW, saying that the character is the same, but with a radical change, even if you got no proof either beyond what the devs said, which is also the same thing I said, is also assumption.).
Are you two kids done arguing yet?
First: I originally made the Trivia sections to add interesting tidbits that do not belong on any other section. This isn't something that was supposed to spark huge pages of discussion and argument for something so unimportant. Do the reasons why Sun Wukong was changed matter or not? No. It's absolutely irrelevant, whether it was lore or because Erez didn't like his clothing or both. Fact is: Sun Wukong was changed and made a completely new character (and this is speaking from a gameplay standpoint) - the trivia section can reflect that, link to Hun Batz (who got the old moveset) and the old Sun Wukong page, as well as the Wukong patch. Done. I am going to this after I finish this edit. And I do not want to see any additional edits to that page section.
Second: I would've expected more maturity from the both of you, knowing how much work both of you are doing around the site. But @ Link - come on man. "Defending the truth"? "Throwing a bone"? "Compromise"? He is an admin, you know, he could've just banned your ass. I actually commend him for trying so long to put up with this farce and discuss with you.
Oh and something else. Don't try to be a smartass with me because I'm not going to be as gentle and understanding as he is. I'm not here to prolong this discussion or continue it in Malvodion's place, I'm here to end it. And it ends now. -- RedArremer (talk) 21:54, 2 November 2013 (UTC)